Conversation with a world-renowned Futurist: Nikolas Badminton

spk_2:   0:01
Welcome to another episode of this weekend. HealthTech, where we cover the latest news and trends in health check in the street. My name is Jimmy Kim, and, of course I'm always a couple of my co host the hotel they What's going on? What's up, Jimmy? Your voice is booming today, man. I am excited. I'm

spk_0:   0:19
excited to talk. So our topic today is a conversation with the Futurist future and and who's not excited to know about the future?

spk_2:   0:29
Well, I don't know. I don't know about my view spot. Maybe Maybe I don't want to know. So But no,

spk_0:   0:33
actually, yeah, You know what? Let's let's keep our future suspends. But we definitely want to know what the health care tech future is, right up to a certain extent. But we'd be definitely wanna look into and and predict or let the experts predict. And that's what I guessed. He's an expert futurist, and we want to see what theories they have in general and also for healthcare tech.

spk_2:   0:58
Yeah, and before I get into who our guest this here today, I just want to make mention that this podcast is sponsored by Tito Inc. A trusted tech partner for health care organizations. For more information on how to partner with Tito, please visit Tito Inc dot com. That's T I d o i n si dot com. And I just want to give a shadow to host my podcast dot com, where professional podcasts like this one are made.

spk_0:   1:27
Hey, Jimmy, one thing I wanna before we bring Nick in I want to mention this thing, which is related to our last episode for about five G. So I'm watching a basketball game and Verizon's ad comes on and they're talking about five g and how Verizon's five G technology will be used and they're talking about this example off an ambulance.

spk_2:   1:52
I don't believe you. Wait, just talked about this exactly.

spk_0:   1:56
I just started laughing and, you know, thanks Bryson for taking an idea and putting that into into this whole commercial. But it was fantastic. It was, you know, the ambulance sending the data back, including maybe the images back to the hospital back to the doctors so they can get ready for this patient as they arrive and hopefully save their lives, right life. So, you know, it was it was amazing to see that?

spk_2:   2:23
Did we, uh, Is Verizon a response of ours?

spk_0:   2:28
We We should definitely send them the part cast link.

spk_2:   2:31
Yeah, Anna Anna Invoice. Perhaps? That's great. Well, you know, if anything, I would say that you you are futurist because that whole five, the episode was your idea. And, you know, we talked about it, and next thing you know yeah, right. Your idea

spk_0:   2:51
How much of a future is that is men in the technology's already here.

spk_2:   2:55
Today we're gonna actually be talking to a futurist. He's an adviser. He goes by the name of Nicholas Badminton. A world renowned futurist and advisor. He has he has spoken and and had clients with the U. N NASA, the Canadian government. Google, just, you know, really has a huge a huge amount of

spk_0:   3:15
he's been on national TV three times.

spk_2:   3:18
Can I just get plug in there? I was on national TV once. You keep what you are. Well, look, you know what I have Nick all ready to go. So why don't we cut to him and Ah, let's talk about the future. You ready?

spk_0:   3:33
I'm ready. Let's go.

spk_2:   3:35
I would like to welcome Nicolas Badminton. Welcome to the show.

spk_1:   3:39
Yeah, thanks very much for having me. Ah, on the podcast. And, uh, yeah, In my like, 25 plus year career, I've managed to work with a lot of different people. The last sort of 5 to 8 years really focused in trends. Futurism conferences. I'm getting people together to talk about how humans are affected by technology and how culture changes when those two collide. And industries like medicine and health care has been a focus is part of that as well.

spk_2:   4:08
Yeah, that's great. And and for me, you were You were the first futurist I've I've ever I've ever met. Tell me, how did you How did you break into this industry?

spk_1:   4:18
Well, it's kind of interesting from very early age. My, my my father was actually buying me books on Futurism and in the future on I was reading a lot about technology. The age of 10 I jumped onto a computer and started programming on DA. Then I eventually went to university and studied artificial intelligence and linguistics. And that was like 96. So it's kind of interesting. I've sort of been in Ford looking technologies for a long, very long time. And from the beginning of my career, around about sort of 96 97 I I was building out very, very large state of infrastructures. Analytical databases are using analytics for predicting behaviors, and this is for consumer marketing. And then I worked in a number of different areas around, you know, consumer platforms. And then the futurism side of things sort of came back up about eight years ago, when I started organizing my own conferences, I felt that there was a gap in the knowledge of people between you know, this this very quickly changing, exponential, technologically driven world on dhe, You know, the human condition, who we are and, you know, occupations. The future of work. The future of particular industries. And then out of the bottom of that drop, like artificial intelligence. Big data. Aye, aye. Climate change, resiliency, transportation, automation, a whole bunch of different areas that we're probably gonna touch on today s. Oh, yeah. I'm now working with a number of very large companies. I've done about 300 keynotes in the last five years on, You know, I speak to crowds as biggest 2000 on, you know, executive groups. You know, like 10 to 45 boards of directors today, GM and everything in between

spk_2:   6:08
my hands as you may be getting sweaty just just thinking of just thinking of us. That's amazing. Well, you know,

spk_1:   6:14
I'm pretty relaxed at this point in time. I was speaking to anyone, So we good

spk_0:   6:20
you should be. I mean, you're talking Thio two really big executives here, but, you know, just just algo de relaxed.

spk_1:   6:28
It's all good. I feel very, very relaxed.

spk_0:   6:31
And one like a CZ You were talking. I was thinking, I mean, you think the demand for a future is in a lot of the organizations You think it's stemming form employees being having a little bit of anxiety in terms of how a I's gonna take over their jobs? Or what are some of the reasons why wide is there Maur and more demand that we're seeing for future futurists?

spk_1:   6:56
Yes. So it is pretty simple. I mean, every business has had strategic planning, and strategic planning is typically followed, you know, sort of quarterly cordially yearly, 18 months, maybe 24 months at most. Some longer runs from the strategic plan would be like three years out. It typically never goes further than that. And I spend like over 20 years doing strategic planning from a technology and business transformation perspective. But now the world is moving so quickly, and we know that there's a potential for a complete redefinition of industries. For example, health care could be completely redefined by access to data applications. I'm driven by machine learning artificial intelligence to do a lot of work of doctors and specialists, physicians that people need to look out a little bit further. So people bring me in and people bring in the teams that I put together a toe, help them just kind of look not to predict the future, but to draw out hypotheses and scenario is about, you know how the future could be. I invite people to say, You know what? If a certain kind of technology was deployed on dhe affected patients in a particular way or affected the physicians daily life in a particular way and then, you know, if you say okay and 2030 the world's gonna be like this, You can you come back, cast and start working out the path room today where we see the signals of change, like the technologies that making changes happen every day, and and a new technologies coming to market to this futuristic world where those technologies don't exist yet. But we've got a vision about Hey, maybe there's a completely autonomous hospital with no with no doctors, no nurses and humans walk in. They get looked after in particular ways all the way back to today where that is not the world, right, And that's a pretty fantastical future. But, you know, when we start to push those boundaries, we thought to get sensible about it. And one of the biggest tools that I deploy in my profession is doubt, you know, or we doubt that's gonna happen. We doubt that technology is gonna replace physicians. We doubt the technology is gonna be performing surgery completely, completely autonomously on when you, when you have doubt, is a tool you can actually cut down into. You know the reasons why you're why you're questioning that on those reasons, can then bounce off technologies that existing today and their evolutionary path, and you can actually have a have a level of faith that they will, or they will know actually follow the path of this future sort of science fiction vision in a way, and that's incredibly powerful. If you think about it, if you could even get a slight hand long what a potential future could be, you can start doing better, like risk planning. You can start looking at technologies that likely gonna be obsolete, and you can start, like putting processes in place, toe look at innovation and look a really working out what what a patient experience looks like. Because to tell the truth, we've been stuck in ah, sort of, ah, stuck in Stasis. You know, we've been stuck in like this is the process. This is how we've always worked on Dhe. Nothing's going to change. And if you're stuck in that Stasis, then you're ultimately going to become obsolete. So you know, it's like Jeff Bezos talks about Day one and day to day one is constant innovation, constant investment on Dr There's no Stasis. It's always moving. It's always developing. And day two is that Stasis. And you know, he very famously says the companies that drop into that day, too situation and just live with their waters scenario. They're gonna literally have a long, slow, painful decline into obsolescence. So you could look at hospitals. You can look at Dr Press practices. You can look at physicians and what they're learning, and you have to realize that it's going to evolve. And it's likely going to evolve using technologies like artificial intelligence

spk_0:   11:09
and whether they like it or not, right? I mean, a feathered positions are ready or nine, but it's coming. And in health care I mean, I I I'm in health care attack, and I deal with that every day. And one of the things that we are seeing is that with a I and machine learning, it is starting to help them to make informed decisions, right?

spk_2:   11:32
I mean,

spk_0:   11:32
that's what that's what it's about. Running positions are looking at your medical records, which a lot of times today it's not organized in a way too easily. See all the things that are going on with you. That's why when you're sitting in front of them, they you know they have your full chart. But they'll say, Hey, Nick, I want things. Can you tell me what's going on? And it's like, okay, and my tests are right in front of you, you know? Did you Did you read those? But they read them. But it's again. It's not an easy job. I'm not gonna go through and look at all the data. If it was presented to them in a in A In a much better visualization, where they can actually see where are the critical points, right? What's what? I don't want to look at all the different data points. I should only be looking at things that are there might be suggesting. Okay, something's going on here. So So that's what I think. The informed decisions? Well, making informed decisions using all the data using machine learning should help the physicians.

spk_1:   12:33
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a lot of people, you know, that there are a few tricks that you walk on the stages and raise their hands and say artificial intelligence will replace doctors and replace hospitals and practices. And, you know, we're gonna have the power in our hands and implantable devices and whatever, we will merge with machines. It's fine. It's pretty much in the realms of science fiction, because here's the world. It is less about artificial intelligence taking over and it's more about Dr in the Machine. So intelligence organization, the the ability to take that doctors already good standing in terms of experience in cases that they've treated before in terms of the practice that they've actually built on toe adds, Add digital steroids to that. To really take away that grunt work off checking so many different cases you can you can. You can check billions and billions of cases potentially on dhe, and it'll it'll feed into decisions about the single case that you've got in front of you, right? I mean, it's really interesting, but there's a lot of companies that are trying to get into the game. The FDA is actually approved more than 40. Aye, aye products in the last five years. And they're actually saying the potential digital health is nothing short of revolutionary. But that revolution is a revolution for doctors, so doctors are still gonna be there. They're gonna be augmented with this extra intelligence in these platforms. It means that they're gonna be able to see more patients perform or diagnoses undertake Maur treatments. And it means that you know any shortage of doctors that were potentially going to see It's so convent id a little bit by the technology that we've got available for us. And this is the is the promise of artificial Turgeon's. It's not the destroyer of worlds. It's not. It's not suddenly going to be a lot of 1,000,000,000 people out of work because of a I, because technology never ever puts people out of work. It's the business model, right? Once we once we work out the business model of of Doctor in the Machine on and that combination working with patients together and sometimes autonomously in some interactions with the patient but still always going back to the doctor that then that's the real revolution I talk about,

spk_0:   14:47
right? Go ahead.

spk_2:   14:49
Yeah. You know, I really like that word. You used the use. You said digital steroid, right? That's, uh, yeah, that's that's a fantastic wayto kind of really Put that where a I will help us, you know, do as you mentioned all that grunt work and that term digital story is amazing. And for you, what? The one thing I've seen with you compared to other other people who are other other features is you really do take a much more positive approach to 22 pitch to this prediction, right? Like where's everybody else is as you mentioned this very doom and gloom. What? What? What do you I guess, What was the difference between you and others? Why? Why is that thinking so so opposite?

spk_1:   15:29
You know what I think? It's Ah, it's is the depth of researcher in the level of practice that I undertake personally that there's that. There's a lot of people that do work in the medicine field. So there's an amazing guy called Dr Eric Topol. He talks about digital medicine applications, artificial intelligence. I saw him speak of genomics PC, I think probably about six or seven years ago, Andi, it just really visionary, really pushing forward and sort of taking an old industry of medicine with love, old thinking and processes and regulations on dhe saying, you know, the only digital in medicine was rectal exams when I was a college, you know, and taking it on being provocative and saying, you know what? This cell phone that I'm holding up in front of you is gonna do the job of of a general practitioner, and eventually it will start to do the job off a specialist and then eventually will do the job as a surgeon. And that provocation is really interesting. But what I've what I do, you know, I can read. I can read any article, and Aiken suddenly turn into a keynote. Cool. But what I do is actually get into the academic side of things. I actually interviewed doctors and surgeons. Andi, I speak to these audiences. I mean in in about a month's time, I'm gonna be in British Columbia, speaking to BC doctor of optometry about 500 doctors there and talking about you know, the future of vision in health and health care. You know, I healthcare and eyes and biology and computing power and did store and data on what that all means and really, you know, to prep. Prepare for that. I went and got a full exam, which I needed anyway, and I got there and I started chatting to the doctors. They were there on site, and then you get into it and you try and understand and you question whether what you're talking about is is sensible and, you know, I always have Q Q and A sessions at the end of my key notes because that's what

spk_0:   17:31
I wanna ask. You notice any quick in between there? Yeah, Your eye exam. Are they still using the same old techniques that they were? You know, like, Oh, can you see the letters now and like, Yeah, it's same old, you know, from 30 years ago.

spk_1:   17:49
Yeah, absolutely. But obviously using new technologies to do that. But what was really interesting about I said, Hey, do you imagine that this could be completely over taken by a machine? And I imagine some of the more mechanical parts of the test absolutely could that there's actually artificially intelligent systems that that conduce reading the scans on be incredibly effective, in fact, more effective than the doctors. I mean, deep mind from from Google has actually got a system that does three D scans the retina, and it could help speed up diagnosis in hospitals. But that's still going to be a doctor of optometry. There's still gonna be ice specialists as part of the picture, But you know you're gonna get your eyes tested, Sure, but but really, you know, when they have to put the drops in your eyes dilate your pupils and all these things. It's really hard for, you know, robotic systems to be that gentle with with humans. In a way, you know that we're there. If you think about the configurations of the human face, there's probably 7/2 1,000,000,000 of them different faces in the world, right and eyes. Would you? You know, how's how sensitive is a robotic device, a plate carefully placing a drop in the eye or whatever, right? So discuss. It could get there one day, But, you know, would you walk in, sit in a machine? It's strap you in duel the business that seems like science fiction to me. You still I think when there's human care, you still need a human in the mix.

spk_0:   19:18
You definitely do, Um, but one of the things today, I think a lot of times that we are missing when me it's always reactive medicine, right? It's still very reactive medicine. When something's wrong, then you start seeing certain things and you die again. If you do the diagnosis and you treat them bye, why don't we try and catch these things beforehand? Why don't Why are we not watching constantly would be not monitoring people constantly. And that's where I think a I is gonna help us, right? I mean, if you are monitoring, maybe with a chip in your body. And I know Jimmy gets a kick out of this every time I mentioned this, but I think I actually think, you know, we will have a chip in our body in the next few years where it will actually monitor the chemical reactions that are going on in your body constantly. And then once it flags certain things, then it's gonna go and notify your your physician. And that's where the physician will come into the picture. But not, you know, not after the fact in terms of OK, now you're already in Stage three Cancer and sorry, Vivian Cash this earlier. I mean, that's a big problem today that I think in health care.

spk_1:   20:32
But But, Wendy, when when do you implant the chip? When do you start the process? When their baby, when they're a particular age where you know how much of the life of that chip is actually gonna be doorman and no, actually useful. What about the obsolescence of that particular platform? Maybe the software that integrates with you know which we're talking about, situations where there's lots of ethical considerations. I think I see. I see what you're saying. Implanted chip, Always always on activated surveillance of your personal health. It's not really gonna work like that. I honestly don't think it's gonna work like that. Do I think that there will be people that are potentially higher risk through genomic markers are being identified at particular ages? Yes. So I think the technology could be potentially help them on a longer, ongoing tracking perspective. Yes, but it's not gonna be. Everyone is in the game like you up over there were suddenly going to chip everyone and and then we're gonna have this constant monitored system off human health care. You know, a global Internet database. In real time of everyone's health, it's it's just not practical.

spk_0:   21:49
I hope it's voluntary. And,

spk_2:   21:52
yeah, like, I don't think I want to thank you, Nick, because there's something that we debate about a lot and what you're saying that the ethics of it, the privacy above it. But perhaps, maybe not. Not now, but don't you think the wearables, the what everyone's wearing the apples that the garment things that fit this those things are already tracking us. Tracking, tracking, data, data, liquor steps are kgz things like that. You do see those becoming Maur more prevalent, warm or being used a lot more in the health care industry.

spk_1:   22:25
Yeah, they already are. I mean, you know what? The apple Yeah, with apple in and the apple watch they released last year and they started talking about some of the more advanced functions they've actually got in there in terms of monitoring the heart and people falling and whatever the amount of people I knew that went out and bought an iPhone for their parents and they bought them apple watches, it was staggering. I mean, it was it was really, really interesting. Tim, to me is a cultural appropriation of technology that could be incredibly useful. And, ah, you know, I think if you look around today, you're you're Seymour Apple watches than ever before. It's it's really interesting when when we look at the prevalence of wearables there because we were in this weirdness. Ah, combined world of biological data computing power on dhe, how data and artificial intelligence comes together and what's happening is data is uploaded to the cloud, and those individuals are more risk of being compromised, potentially on an ongoing basis, not only from a privacy perspective, but you know, security and being being hacked. And even Yuval Noah Harari A. The World Economic Forum last week was talking about this, these three combinations of biology, computing and data and the artificial intelligence that could go across all of them really compromising what it means to be a human in the modern world.

spk_0:   23:51
And so the apple watch that you mentioned and more and more people buying those for their parents with the E. C G function. It kind of makes sense, right. It's like old. My my parents are getting older, and I think maybe, you know, one of them has a heart condition. It'll be good to have the CCG right on their wrists. So if anything is going on, but But that only goes so far right. Like that data doesn't go back to the physician. It doesn't go back to a hospital, but they're actually monitoring and taking an action based on based on that data. And that's a huge gap. Yeah, um, and that's why? You know one of the other question that comes up in future, I mean, and right now, in health care industry, there's a debate going on because one of the big E H R systems epic systems they are opposing the the government law that they are trying to push through, which will require all the systems to open up the data. Right. So if you have any APS, you should be able to access the data from the hospital. And one of the big E H R systems is actually opposing this act. What? I think opening up the data makes sense, right? I mean, if we are going to have meaningful e aps meaningful research based on all this data, and I totally understand the whole privacy question and all that. But I think I think with the power of Google and Microsoft and Amazon, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I'm interested in your thoughts in terms of OK, how are they going to use the data in a way that not going to hopefully infringe on our privacy and help us make better decisions?

spk_1:   25:33
Well, you know where we step forward When we signed the terms and conditions on any of these devices, of platforms, of whatever. We've already lost our sense of self and our identity, so I mean, it's already there now. There's actually some really progressive models, like open data, anonymous data, aggregated data that could be useful. Okay, that's cool. I think it's really sensible, but it we're still not in control of that. That, in fact, were part of the product. They're actually selling our information. There's actually some new models about about date of ownership, that being ah developed right now and within the office of the chief information technical technology officer within Microsoft. And it's called digital Dignity. They've been working with Gogol, JaRon Lanier and his team to really work out what it would mean for all of us. Tow own our own data toe, have the choice about how it gets used. And if it gets monetized to actually earn money from those transactions, right, It's like suddenly data and the future will be like the you know, the future version of today's drug trial, Right? We go in, we do the drugs, they take the information, they give us money, they say, Thank you very much. It's anonymous. We're good to go. And in the future, we're suddenly we're already bleeding data. But why don't we own it? Management, you know, individual data platforms, and we can actually control our ecosystem of data on dhe. Choose when it, when it is used, isn't used. We can provoke privilege whenever we want. And that seems like an incredibly sensible well, too May. That would be amazing. Right? Exactly. And this this is this is gonna be tough to make work whole scale. Can you imagine Facebook doing this? You know, you know, other platforms that made money from advertising, whatever. But the companies that actually step into that dignity will actually be winners in the long term. And we're talking 2030 to 2050 and beyond. Dress the cut. Yeah. So

spk_0:   27:35
I was gonna say Apple, I think compared to Facebook and maybe Google from a public perception, it seems like Apple actually pays a lot more attention to privacy. Well, that's the perception, right? I mean,

spk_1:   27:48
well, that's absolutely the perception. I mean, they keep it, they keep ah, you know, they do keep things private, but they've got they've got that data internally and what they're using it for internally in terms of developing their own products. They're just keeping that they're just keeping it a closed ecosystem. So they've got the competitive advantage. I think I pulled the market cap information of Apple the other day. $1.39 trillion

spk_0:   28:13
That's done. But yeah,

spk_1:   28:15
yeah, I mean, I mean everyone that's been criticizing Tim Cook for years. They need they need to go and take a coach. Our and it's true. I mean, you know, the each other people that want to capture the HR and maintain control other people that want to monetize it because, you know, when the Internet came out, it was free access to communications and information. And you know what? People redefined what, what freedom of access meant. Freedom of access meant way. We gave away our lives and we became the product, and this is this is create the world we've become, Marshall McLuhan said. You know, we create the tours and then the tools become us right. So it's like people in their production of selfies didn't exist until smartphones and social media, right? It's the same thing with with data you know, people just give it away because it's it's easy. You know, Tic tac is one of the most terrifying platforms. I think I I know 1.5 billion downloads and kids practicing for hours to try and get some recognition online. It actually leads to actually a pretty, uh, pretty large scale deterioration of mental health.

spk_2:   29:29
Absolutely. No. I see that because, you know, I'm in the fitness and health industry myself, and I see that all the time. You know, everybody. You're not just the kids, but even adults as well. You know, they you're thinking, Why don't I have that body? Why don't I have that life not knowing that there are filters. There are a lot of those bodies. They're just not natural, you know, Men, men or women. And yet you know, you see, you see them get depressed over this. Yeah, the

spk_0:   29:55
youngsters will be They will be okay with it. I think we are. All three of us are obviously older than 13 to I don't know the 17 year olds who are post tomorrow morning. So they you know, they all will be okay with sharing their health data or at least an animal ized data, right? I mean, we're we're a lot more careful, and we know you don't want to share the data for many reasons. What was it like? Okay, so with this new outbreak, the whole Corona virus that's going on in China, and you know, now it's spreading throughout the world. I mean, if if we had better access to that data and again, we're talking about China, so there's only limited information coming out of there. However, if it was possible to for easier access to a lot of this data and you know, if we had Google or Microsoft rounding up, you know, maybe using Google Deepmind, for example, if there was actually analyzing a lot of this data, the health data coming out of a certain region and it could have probably pointed out okay, that is an outbreak here, or there is going to be a start off in our break. You I mean, that would be amazing. Instead of a lot of these people already traveled all around the world taking that virus with them. So I'm hoping that that will be one of the you know, one of the things that you would see in future. But again, I think in in North America and Europe, with the privacy laws, it will be pretty difficult to get there. And I don't know Naked view, you know, in your talks, if you know, or if you predict in terms of the timeline, very woodsy or more open data access.

spk_1:   31:41
You know, we're stuck in the cycle of every company wrapping the data in arcane, legalized, you know, like huge tomes of privacy, regulation and terms and conditions. It's it's so it's difficult for us to break that. From a legal perspective, you have to break entire business model. So amazon dot com uh, if if you if you were to read out loud the terms and conditions of amazon dot com, it takes you about nine hours to read out loud, right? So what? What lives in those terms and conditions, an entire protected business model toe unravel. That too simple terms that this says we will. We will capture a data will give you full access to that, and you will be able to control who uses it, who makes money from it, blah, blah, blah and put it in simple terms. Maybe, you know, sit like 500 words takes takes the motivation to break a business model to affect profits, to affect shareholder relationships on dhe. To enter fundamentally retrain your entire user base, toe work completely differently. Right? So how long's it gonna take to do that? It's an almost impossible task. So what's gonna happen is over time they'll be pilots and people like that and people will get on board. And there's gonna be a technical transformation within technical transformation back towards human empowerment. But it's only really gonna work in these free democratic societies. You don't know her aria, the World Economic Forum you gave an example about you might be in North Korea, where its mandate that everyone wears a wearable device on they they watch. They watch a broadcast by the leader, Andre Kim joon on dhe. And at the end, everyone has to stand up and applaud and small and clap on DDE that that real time device on their wrist captures what they really think in terms of their most because of, you know, no sweat reaction. Whatever

spk_2:   33:57
things the hard drive

spk_0:   33:58
is and goes

spk_1:   34:00
blah, blah, blah. Whatever. Yeah, on bureau. No arise like yeah, and those that haven't actually fallen into line with honesty and thrown in a gulag the next day. Right? So I was I was actually speaking to a futurist called Brian Williams in Ah, in Johannesburg in South Africa. Today about trans human isn't exactly this is that we have to come back to humanity and the rights of the individuals that we've signed away, and we need to liberate them on DDE. I can only happen within the companies like Apple and Google on Alison, you know,

spk_2:   34:34
But do you think that's the job of the government to help mandate that or another organization like who's gonna get these companies to do that?

spk_1:   34:44
Well, it has to come from government, and it has to come from pressure from the government. We've already seen a lot of pressure in terms of privacy and in the, you know, broken privacy on and, you know, became Sam political scandal on whatever and yeah, there needs to be controlled from government. The bottom line is that these tech companies need to step up and hat and actually start being responsible. But really, they're only going to do that if the consumers start shouting about how their position has been compromised. So you know, consumer empowerment, consumer watchdogs, government pressure and people within these tech companies that already champions for understanding the new words gonna be hugely profitable for those companies,

spk_2:   35:26
right? Anything you hit that on on the point they're like it. I mean, essentially really would come down to the consumers. But to get these consumers, uh, organized and to get them to get them going, talking about that's that's really like the tough part.

spk_1:   35:40
Yeah, a lot of people would like. People have paid for convenience free, free, access to platform. It's convenience they pay with, you know, with their blood and their heartbeat.

spk_0:   35:52
But I think that's where once consumed and consumers are realizing this more and more. I mean, we are seeing this in health care where they are actually walking into hospitals with mobile labs and saying, Hey, I want my medical record on my phone, like Why? Why don't I have access to my own record? Why do I have to go to your medical records department and they print me all these things? And then I have you know what it's 2020 like it should be easy enough to transfer my medical record on my phone. And here we got in 2020 still talking about how do I get access to my own medical records? And I think that's where you know what, Jimmy? Regarding your question about consumers, I think it's coming right. They are going to pressure the government into into making those laws where these electronic health records systems will have to actually open up their data. And because you, it's your data. At the end of the day, it's your held information. You should have access to it and you should know where it's being shared. And who is it being shared, too, and for what purpose? So it's coming, But, you know, like Nick said, I mean be it might take a little bit longer.

spk_1:   37:07
Yeah, I mean, this is this is not normal behavior to even question the authority of the hospitals or the doctors or whatever it is. It's just not normal behavior. I think that it has to. It has to be pushed towards. The consumer has to be offered to the consumer, and the consumer needs to make her decision once is offered. I don't think I don't think 99.999% of consumers or patients we should call them are gonna walk into hospitals and doctors and even ask for the daily. You know, maybe you've seen something else, but I just don't see that as a human human behavior. Not yet, I think. Yeah, but there's gonna be some activists that really, you know, fight for that. But hey. Okay, so there's three vessel on the fun on being recorded for this, and okay, we all get free access to our data that I shrug a little bit. You know, it's it's like when I received my 23 me results. It's like, Oh, you know, I'm gonna have male pattern baldness. I'm gonna have red hair, you know, through the asparagus reflex and all all these things. And it's like and it's a big shrug. It's like, Yeah, yeah, that's the situation. But you don't You

spk_0:   38:18
think you don't think a lot of the young people who are used to now doing everything on their phone pretty much, you know, from the time they wake up to the time they go to sleep. They have an app for everything. No, you don't. You don't think they are going to demand an app for their medical record? I think they will. I mean, it's going to be very confusing for them. That the simple fact that I just got my lab test done and I don't have the results on my phone. I have results for everything.

spk_1:   38:49
No, no, no. But the thing is like, you can absolutely already get lab results on your phone. That that's not true. You mean you can already you can go get blood tests done. You can access the web sites for results through your three through through a website, actually on your phone or tablet. It's already that today. Yeah, but it's

spk_0:   39:07
not. It's not that easy still, I mean, you may okay, certain certain labs may offer you the test results and then from your hospital, they will give you access to your patient health record. But it's very you know, all these disparate systems. There you go to your clinic, that clinic data is different. You know, you go to your hospital. That's so what I'm trying to say. That should be easy. enough to plug into wherever you go wherever you get your service to get that data back on demand. You know, whenever,

spk_1:   39:39
Yeah, I completely agree. It should be easy. And But, like, you know, you have to solve the problem of disparate legacy systems and and it just bean fragmented data. You know, d do deliver 75% off the picture of your health to someone because that's all we've got access to. Well, that's incredibly dangerous to some people, right? So he kicks in the ethical thing, right? You know, we should doctors give only part of the picture, and then suddenly something someone seems so part of the story, and it suddenly got a dozen questions. Whereas if suddenly they they sit down with the doctor and they talked through the situation, they're given a sense of, of understanding for that. But maybe this is where a I kicks in as well. Maybe what if artificially intelligent systems access is the data and knowledge bases in cases and builds a relationship with that individual over time, that that's actually a really interesting idea, you know, we can speculate that that could be a future. What would it take to get there with the level of accuracy and whatever, Then, you know, that's another story.

spk_0:   40:48
That's amazing. I feel like we can go on on this for a while.

spk_2:   40:53
We probably could. But I know you're very busy on time. I want to just say I really appreciate you coming onto the show this today If you had any Any lasting words for I guess the future of health technology D

spk_1:   41:07
Yeah. So, uh, something that I always say is this change? Change is the only constant in life change happens. We either change or change happens to us. If we if we stand still, the world's going to change around us and we're gonna lose advantage. We also need to be part of that change. So this conversation about open data, data, dignity, access to E h. R. On that 100% 3 seats of degree view of our health needs to be. It does need to be an active participate, every roll from us as patients. But we've got to really make government step up on start talking about creating policy and regulation that actually serves consumers in that way. But here is the rub healthcare doesn't win elections. Health care is a basic human, right. How many people really fight for health care in general political sentence? I mean, Obama did down in the States, and that's being unraveled right now by Trump. But people don't generally talk about health care in somewhere like Canada, because it's just that right? So what we have to do is we need to raise the conversation in health care. We need to say that, you know, change is happening. It's gonna happen to us with the patients and us, the government from Trudeau down. And all the opposition bodies need to be part of that discussion. You know, wake up and t really service People in this country

spk_0:   42:38
really appreciate you coming on and talking about some of these really difficult topics. I think, especially in health care, which I think it's lags behind other industries.

spk_2:   42:48
Yeah, that are sold. Also want to mention if you want to get a hold of of Nicholas as a speaker of yours, you can always reach him at Nicholas badminton dot com. That's Nicholas with cake. Thanks very much. Thank you. Good night. All right, appreciate it. Well, uh, so I'm excited about this one. You're a natural