Digital Strategy with Top 100 Influencer Jared Johnson

spk_0:   0:02
Welcome to another episode of this weekend, Caltech, where we cover the latest news and trends

spk_2:   0:06
in health tech industry. My name is Jimmy Kim, and, of course I'm accompanied by my co host picked Patel that what is going on,

spk_1:   0:14
who so really different just feels really different today Because usually we record our episodes on Sunday nights, and here we are Friday afternoon. And so, anyways, just a little

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bit. If you look different in the you look different with a little bit of sun sun in your face.

spk_1:   0:35
Am I going?

spk_2:   0:36
You're glowing, definitely going,

spk_1:   0:38
you know, you know, I always go right. I mean, it's just you just used field to notice it.

spk_2:   0:45
Well, look, before we before again two more jibber jabber. I just gonna mention 11 thing. This podcast is sponsored by Tito Inc. A trusted tech partner for health care organizations. For more information on how to partner with Tito Wink, please visit Tito Inc dot com. That's t i D o i n si dot com, and we're also sponsored by host my podcast dot com, where professional podcasts like this very one, you're listening to our maid. So, Vic, we have. Ah, we have a jam packed show. Look, this is our second week in a row where we have a guest. Last week we had the pleasure of speaking with futurist Nicholas badminton and ah, this flying somebody else, right?

spk_1:   1:26
I had quite a few people reach out to me about that episode and, you know, they and one of one of them was really interesting in terms up. Oh, the thing that you guys talked about in terms off data access and how is that going to be? You know, how long will that take? Right in terms off, opening of data, access to all the applications And how will that be used? And the whole debate about, you know, will we chip everyone so we can keep monitoring everyone or not? Funny that how many people reached out to me about We really enjoyed your futurist conversation, and, um

spk_2:   2:08
and I think today's episode be no different. We have another fantastic guest on. He goes by the name of Jared Johnson. And, uh, you actually have met him in person, right? Like you actually know him.

spk_1:   2:20
He's a really nice guy. I met him a couple times at healthcare Internet conferences and just, you know, it's usually once a year. But you just know when someone's January only good at what they do, right? And he's amazing. A digital strategy, digital marketing strategies. And, yeah, I am definitely excited to have him on the episode today and find out what things health system should be doing for the digital strategies, what to watch out for And you know what's up. Coming right. Like, what are the right channels to use when you when you do your marketing?

spk_2:   2:57
He's also a podcast host himself, and he hosts the healthcare rap podcast. And if you haven't unwrapped most definitely he can definitely rap, Um, and also talk a lot about healthcare tech. And if you haven't checked out, you gotta check out his episode, because for me it was. It made it very consumable for someone who is not very, you know, into the world of like, health Check is not my day to day thing, but listening to him and having, you know, listening to him and talking about health care, having his guests on, and he had, like, little interesting little segments in there and, you know, I'm gonna ask him about about that. I wouldn't want to give up on the show. So are you ready? Vic, I'm ready. All right. Get Jerry on the line, then. I would like to welcome our guests here today. He is a builder of health care brands with over 17 years experience in digital marketing. He's an author, a keynote speaker and host of the healthcare wrapped podcast. I would like to welcome Jared Johnson to the show. Hey, Jared, I was going.

spk_0:   3:53
Hey, guys, how are you? I'm doing great

spk_1:   3:55
rock. Come a

spk_2:   3:56
J before, before we get going. You know, uh, if I could take one step back from from health care for a sec? Well, sort of. I was. Listen to your podcasts. I want to ask, Is that you that's wrapping?

spk_0:   4:09
Uh, yeah, it is it is it?

spk_2:   4:11
That's amazing. Man. That's been easy. So you are. You are, You know, like wrapping into hip hop,

spk_0:   4:16
I'd say old school rap and hip hop. If you quiz me these days, it probably reflects more of ah, my age. Make my kids interest in it. They could school me on it right now, but yeah, I mean, goodness, It is definitely influenced things. And it that all pointed back to the very first time I keynoted anywhere was about three years ago. And I wanted to just introduce myself in a different way. And I ended up rewriting the theme song to the fresh Prince of Bel Air and, ah, just to introduce myself just to do something And people were like, Dude, you gotta do that again. I'm like, All right, I'll give it a shot. And needless to say, we've been doing it a lot since then.

spk_2:   4:57
Yeah, well, you sound great. You know, I always respect anybody. Comes, comes on And, uh, you know, makes makes their own tunes and freed it free to do that. That's that's a really amazing and and even your You have, like, little mid segments when you have guests on like, uh oh, you have, like, a sort of like a rap battle with them, right? We're not really a rap out of you have. Like, uh, you have a little bit of a battle going on where you share your points and you sound off, right?

spk_0:   5:19
Right? Yeah. Exactly. And it's not a rat we call right about because, together with the guests were usually doing battle against an assumption or the status quo. We're never sets why we call it that. But yeah, we do. We kind of followed that format on on the show, and it's ah has worked Well, you know, it's one of those things. I'm sure it's not everyone's taste, but those who tune in there like it's it's something memorable when we try to say something in the is slightly different or more memorable way. And yeah, I mean, sure, we we got a long way to go, but it's it's been a lot of fun.

spk_2:   5:49
I like it because, you know, um, for for us here, like I'm like the Lehman, I'm I'm here just, you know, asking questions that perhaps maybe the everyday person would ask. And Vic Vics are experts. So for me to listen to your show was very refreshing in the sense of like, Okay, like, it maybe want to tune in and made me want to listen. And then when you had that you had a little bit segment was like, Well, what's this? It reminds me of a lot of like the the you know, the shows that usedto watch, like, you know, a B t or like on much music, things like that that we have over here. So that was really cool, man. Tell him as

spk_1:   6:19
you to remember, right? Exactly. Exactly. And And I want to say Jimmy So I met Jed at one of our conference is one of the healthcare conferences and it's called the Healthcare Internet Conference. And I think Jared What? Maybe it was about three or four years ago and in Vegas. Yeah. No, it was great to meet you then. And I have been keeping an eye on all the things you have been doing on lengthen and obviously podcasting. So we are really excited to talk to you about the healthcare, marketing and digital strategies today.

spk_0:   6:56
Actually, appreciate it. I really did. I loved seeing the invite. I was glad he got back in touch here and And, yeah, that stuff's fund, it's it's fun just to talk about what's going on, because everything around us is kind of shifting. And so if we're not keeping an eye on it, at least trying Thio to decide where to pivot or or what What to do or where to keep going, then you know, then we're gonna fall behind one way or the other. So So we've got to keep on touch of things on top of things as much as we can.

spk_1:   7:22
Exactly. And we have been talking about a I and actually our last episode. We were talking to a futurist, right? And he had some amazing, ah insight into what's upcoming and very C health care going. But I think healthcare marketing and digital strategy is just, you know, one part that the marketing department's and the I T departments deal with it every day. But I'm not sure. I mean, what is your perspective? Is it being Is it? Is it talked about enough in the organizations and health systems? Or should it be a topic that should come up more than mawr in the executive offices

spk_0:   7:59
more than it used to be? Still, not enough. And I think half of that's just the definition of marketing itself. There's the traditional classic definition of marketing, which for decades was the madman style we re associated with advertising. That's all there, rose really to to get a message and try to change the perception to a big audience. It was mass advertising, and there are only a few mass channels out there to do it in Digital. Changed all of that, and it not only changed where we direct our attention, it also it fundamentally changed the way that we perceive brands and the way we engage with them, that touch points we have with them. And so all of that has to do with with health care and health tech a lot because we were out there trying to do the same things. We were focusing a lot on mass advertising and in our case is a lot of times it was in the B two B world in the health tech world. It was in the trade pubs and in the direct to consumer side of things. We were just still blasting people with TV spots, radio commercials and and still taking out ads in the newspaper, just thinking that was a way to do it with digital. What's that? What that has done is it is allowed us to have completely personalized touchpoints and engagements with people. So no matter who your audience is, if we recognize that they are not out there waiting for another TV commercial. You know, they're fast forwarding through it. They're not even paying attention to a lot of banner ads. Ah, lot of browsers are. They have ad blockers now. And you know, you have folks like Google who just announced Chrome's going to Do away with all third party cookies and then in the next, I believe is 2022 s o. We're having less and less attention that we can't even focus any kind of advertising on. And the meantime there, those brands who have figured out how to how to completely shift the conversation. They have created digital experiences by actually putting out content that's that people want to find it might be a podcast might be a video Siri's. It might be a YouTube channel. It might be instagram stories. Every day. It might be. Still, that's the foreman of the channel is almost irrelevant these days. It's just that's the strategy. The strategy is like. Let's build our brand by creating some trust with our audience instead of doing the exact opposite way. Don't we don't actually trust advertising anymore. We don't naturally trust health care organizations either because you know our experiences, they're usually so crappy. So you know, if we think about it in terms of building trust, that marketing itself takes on a whole new meaning. And I feel like that's the conversation that's starting to take a little more momentum in the right executive teams and and and sea level executives, and they're planning sessions. It started to happen a little bit more often, so that is encouraging. There's just a long way to go.

spk_1:   10:56
It is a long way to go. And in one of the myths that I think you know, the digital service is and the abs, it's only for young people. I don't really think that's true. I mean, we, Seymour and Maur older people actually using their phones, and it makes sense to non just target young people. But also make sure that you know you have APS that actually everybody in your target audience can use and can use. Your service is, for example, scheduling appointments or using an app to actually interact with your caregivers or look up your medical records. So I think you're right. I mean, digital digital service is is used and people are actually expecting that, right? I mean, is that something that's changing as well in terms off, You know, if one health system actually, uh, provides these digital service is, then you kind of start expecting that from everybody.

spk_0:   11:52
Exactly. This all has to do with expectations. And it's not just expectations in a box about what did I expect from any health care organization that I've associated with or engaged with recently? It has to do with every brand everywhere every day. So if I, you know, everyone points to Amazon with good reason. You know everyone. Any Apple loyalists will point to the, you know, their experience with with Apple. You know, with any apple devices, they usually have more than one apple device if you've got 1 50 eggs. Exactly. I'm said I'm sitting looking at my watch. I'm looking at my iPhone. I've gotta uh oh, my goodness. I have so many devices here in the room. I have got an echo on a Google home assistant right next to each other, right next to my iPhone on the desk. Like it's it's nuts rights. But we look to those those brands in terms of a digital experience that we have engaged with recently. And we think, why isn't healthcare doing this? You know anything about any other industry? That if if you stayed at the hotel and I was just I was just in, like, two nights ago, right now during my travels. And if I'd stayed at a hotel and they said, Well, uh, the price is probably gonna be somewhere between this and this, but I won't let you know until about two months after you stayed here. You know, like no other industry. That expectation doesn't even like you won't even participate in that activity. Won't buy that product. You won't. You won't buy that service. So why's that? The level of expectation here in health care? I mean, that's a complicated question, and yet has everything to do with how do we engage in marketing channels for health tech? Right, So So one example is you're right. In terms of it, it is. There's a bit of myth to it. The thought that people just don't want this in general, that they don't want digital health. But if you look at the current landscape, you can see why people think that way. They're What example is it was recently there was a It was the first so called smart pill, right? It was by a group called protests. Um, and it's been on the market for several years. I want to say at least three or four years that it maybe four years ago. The first receipt, maybe five, actually, that it received FDA approval. So it's an ingestible pill with a sensor in it. You wear a patch and it relays all this information back to your clinic. 19.

spk_1:   14:15
Oh, hold on one sec. This

spk_2:   14:18
chair. This is actually right up. Right up. Vic. Sally, over here. This is something that he's been.

spk_1:   14:22
I am loving the This has been ongoing debate here, so no, please. I'm really interested in this order to interrupt. But Jimmy, pay close attention here,

spk_0:   14:33
so yeah, You know what? This is one that grabbed my attention when I first heard about it. And so they had a distribution partners. My understanding. Ah, a company called Otsuka. Out in Japan. They and so I don't know the exact workings, but protests were the They were the pharma company. They developed the pill, and it was approved by the FDA, and just recently there was basically there. People were focused on the business agreement between them and Otsuka. Right? They weren't really talking about the marketing side. They're just talking about the business side, but where I'll show you where that has to do with marketing. Because there's a perception that oh, this digital, this digital healthtech just either it wasn't wanted or just didn't work, and none of those things were true. It it worked incredibly like it's been on the market. It's still on the market. But what happened is between the investors on investors with that Japanese distributor. Without Sukha, the word was like basically, that partnership unraveled because they have said like we don't have enough. We're not seen enough profits right now, But the really the problem that happened and this was Ah, um, it was in a couple of different trade pubs. I read, Ah, a couple of logs online, where they talked about Really? Okay, if you dig down what the problem was, it's not the fact that, like the tech, was amazing. I mean, who else who else provides that? That kind of information on that level that a clinical team could dig into and truly provide the right diagnosis, right? It's crazy. I'm Yeah, I'm a true believer of digital health. And so I like to think, you know, like, what's how can I help make this this work? How can I get the word out about things like this? But in their case, what happened is that it wasn't that the tech didn't work. They were just finding that was just taking longer for providers to fit it into their clinical workflow. There used to things the way they do it. And so it was just It was a slow process. And so investors were just saying that they were burning through cash. And yet, in reality, the pills working right. There's all this data being transmitted that they a clinical teams never had before. But then that also present a kind of problem in that they didn't know what to do with all these reams of data. They were getting sleep patterns. They're getting all these physical activity levels, like way more than a Fitbit or an apple watch. They were getting it, you know, straight from from inside the patient. And so, uh, the core goal was just the log When the patient took their pills. It was just basic adherents, right? Just basic patient engagement. And there they were like, Hey, here's all this other info. So you take a look at this and there you have the executive saying like, Man, were we? We're so buying into this like we love this thought. Um, and yet at the end of the day, we're not seemingly providing enough value to the provider's, even though we're like, look like that. Look at all this data. Now look how you can help your patients more and not enough providers were doing it quickly enough. That's kind of the word on the street, and that's that's why they're there. Distribution agreement is kind of falling apart, so bottom line, the tech works. The tech is amazing. The tech is providing some of the promise of that that has been out there for digital health and that now they have a perception issue. So now they're going to find out how, like, how do they market this in a different way? How do they explain to both the patient and the provider what the benefits are so it it's just one example of how there is a marketing component to it. And yet all along you can't help but wonder. What if the right value proposition had been marketed and communicated all along to the provider, you know? Was there just too much hype about how easy it would be in that they wouldn't have to change their clinical work flow? You know, that's what I wonder. And I definitely don't know that the inside details Maybe that's maybe that's what makes me wonder about it.

spk_1:   18:20
Maybe there was some information overload, and this is something that kind of talked about it as well. You know, if you have something that's tracking your body constantly and it's monitoring it and collecting data. But you also don't want to overload the physicians either. You know, let's give them the critical data points to help them make an informed decision. But again, you know, the whole perception that you talked about that's really interesting. I mean, maybe they could have done a better way off creating stories that could have actually explained. Hey, this is this is how your physician makes a decision today. You know, doing these tests after the fact. In terms of okay, you're not feeling well. You go to your test and they and they look at the results. But how about this? Your physician will get notified about critical data points critical flags that even before they had, you know, didn't really have to order any test. But actually, this device, this pill that's actually monitoring all the chemical reactions within your body, is working with your physician to make an informed decision, right? It's telling them what's going on with your body. So maybe that's what you think. Maybe creating better stories could have actually helped with the perception.

spk_0:   19:37
Yes, I think so. And when when you look at it, there's also just the classic case of providers that some of them all they saw was the hype about about digital health in general. And so there was waiting for somebody to come in with. You know, this is an evidence based field, right? So they're looking for somebody coming like, show me, show me the evidence, and then I'll listen to you. So it's kind of the classic marketing paradox of digital health. To begin with, uh, look like we're not over hyping this in our mind, you know that the tech actually can do all these things. It can make your job easier to make your patient's life better. And, you know, we just need to help you understand. So I think, actually has more to do with the providers perception in their expectations. And I did what any Anything else? Um, yeah, so you know, we'll just see how things go from there, but, um, I think it's just it's a microcosm of what's going on out. There was so many different promises out there. And if we think about really what that means to all the audiences and health care, then we at least can get a little bit closer to having our marketing resonate with them. Because, like I, for one, I want to see this kind of thing succeed. I believe in it. So definitely, yeah, whatever we can do to help.

spk_2:   20:50
So, Jared, if if if I don't mind putting you in the in the hot seat a little bit, how would how would how would you have taken the approach to market a product like this so that it would be it would be more acceptable to to everybody.

spk_0:   21:06
Great, great question. In my mind, it really is all about the clinical work flow and working with, like, marketing on behalf of an to doctors for a number of years. Now they could care less what a marketer tells him, unless it makes something easier for them. And it's really apparent. Like in the case of the Smart, the smart pill they didn't They didn't realize that in their mind they weren't getting reimbursed anymore. And all it was doing was making their life complicated. And so they're not going to use it like they don't care who you know who talks to them and tell them anything otherwise and then on top of it, being in this evidence based field, they're not going to naturally listen to hype. Now that's also generalizing to it. I think there are those who get it more. I mean, there is There is a generation gap here is well, there really is in terms of how quickly some adopt digital health and how quickly, simple, how quickly they don't. Uh, so the type I would typically I guess I always gravitate towards two things. One really is content and and the other is digital experience. So in my mind the story of the promise of the reality of what it took for this smart pill to work in my mind, it doesn't seem like that was told properly to the right people and that it was just sold somewhere along the, you know, somewhere much higher up the chain. Then it was told that providers Hey, guess what? You know where we have this contract for the smart pill and they're gonna learn how to use it instead of that being part of the marketing all along the way. Like if that story had been told all to everyone who was involved with the smart pill all along the way, you can't help but wonder if it would have been used a little bit more. So that's where I would have started going. And it would start with, like, really, you know, authentic. I like video. I like audio like imagery. You know, I just telling stories in lots of different ways where you know you wanna actually just understand where something's coming from. It's not gonna It's not gonna feel like it's untrustworthy.

spk_1:   23:07
No, that's great. That's a great example off what did not work and what could have been done and, you know, leading to the next thing. I was thinking as Jimmy is asking what what you could have done. And you know what? Channels could have been used. I mean, that's what I was thinking while while you were answering that question, Could you have made more trustworthy like a Facebook story or a YouTube video that people can actually watch And, you know, maybe using a real person's example where they were tracking this patient and how it actually helped them catch something, diagnose something early on instead of it becoming a much bigger issue. What are some of the channels that that you are focusing on these days and you know, Yeah. I mean, what is it? Facebook? Is that instagram I read talking about Snapchat. What are some of the channels that you are focusing on?

spk_0:   24:03
So I think first of foremost has got in this case, if we're still going through this scenario, it's gotta come from other clinicians. It's gotta come from their peers, and so the channel could be almost anything I do focus on podcasting myself, because people can multitask while they listen. Right and and it's it's consistent. We're used to consuming media as if everything's Netflix were like, you know, you know, I mean, the man DeLorean, right? You take that on. Uh uh, on Disney plus right when it launched. There's only eight episodes of the Mandalore in, and you're like the world went crazy for it. And ah, and like, even just the fact that season two's coming this this coming October like that gets headlines. It's because of this, like this serial experience, meaning where we were. That's how you build trust with any content. You put out something consistently. You're really about it. People like it if you give them some reason to keep coming back. Keep listening. Keep watching. Keep reading. If you do that, then the format of the channel almost doesn't matter. But I have seen, I guess I mean, you know, my preferences are, uh, uh, podcasting, YouTube. Any video Siri's linked in against crazy high engagement. And it's not just for HR or culture or recruiters. It's for everyone who has a job. So Lincoln has crazy engagement right now. Um, Instagram. Actually, if people like like the sky's the limit for Instagram and scram stories. Uh, there's not even close to enough healthcare content there yet. Um, doctors on Instagram have crazy success when they do it right. So that's a place that you could see more physicians just putting out info like Peer to peer. There's one doctor to a, uh, he was the first, uh, his name is Dr Austen Chang. He is out of Jefferson Health in the in the Philadelphia area. And just last year he became the first chief social media medical chief medical social media officer at a major hospital. So part of his job is to combat fake health news out there on behalf of other clinicians. So he's not really putting out content out there for for patients. He's putting out there for his peers. And so, you know, if we have more of that, I mean, he's out there on Instagram every day just about, and he's all over the place. He's on YouTube is Arlington, puts out great content, and it's like, Hey, people, um, you know, here's what I encountered today what would you have done? And it gets a ton of engagement So you think about just that authentic voice he like. He doesn't have any pretense. He's like, This is who I am, you know, like this. How long I've I've been trained. Think this is where I came from? Here's my experience and people really like that. So I think it's just kind of a uh if we think about what that is, first recognizing that there are opportunities for more voices out there, then then people will find the format channel that works for them. But I'm telling you, you know, I if I had to start one place today, it would either be a podcast or instagram.

spk_2:   27:16
You know, it's interesting that you mention you mentioned fake news in health care. I'm in the fitness industry myself and, you know, to get on Instagram or Facebook or anything like that. It's It's all a lot of it is like fake fitness news, right? I got this body because I did this kind of work out. When reality is like it's most likely probably not. Right. Um, so for someone like trying to battle fake news like what? You know, getting an expert to come on and talk about it. What are what are some other strategies that you can go about battling this, this fake news that that's happening? I guess in almost every every industry,

spk_0:   27:51
well, ironically, this is also the same way to To market the right tech out there, in my opinion, is to just put out the right content out there, put put true information out there and explain the difference and attack it head on and just say, You know, hey, like, there's a lot of people asking me this question. Here is what I tell them when they come into the clinic and here's what I would tell you, you know, and here's what that's based on and just go from there. And sometimes that's just a simple It could be a simple instagram story that could be a quick snack herbal YouTube video. But it could also be longer content. I think that's what that's what's interesting as well, I think as marketers, sometimes we have focused so much on snack herbal content here that really short stuff that we're not actually providing the substance behind it. The snack table, the shorter video clip, the pullout quote, you know, the things that we post those air absolutely valuable. Those do get attention. They get engagement in different ways. But if we don't sometimes have the deeper form content beneath it, then a lot times we're missing out. And so those who are successful with this kind of strategy, if of combating fake health news are out. They're continually, they are doing it on a regular basis. They're just talking just straight up to people. They are providing the basis of their opinion. They're saying, Here's what that's based on and you know, they're just being real about it, and that's getting more engagement than anything else. But it is. It is just recognizing, like it comes off like that. Consumers air smart, right? Like, uh, like the example you were just giving right of the kind of fake fitness stuff like, you know, that body didn't come from that one proud product or that one program. It came from a lifetime of fitness and probably some good genes involved there to somewhere, right. So like like people are smart, like they sniff out something that's not authentic a mile away these days, and I think that's just what a lot of Ah ah, A lot of health care organizations. If they recognize that that's an opportunity for them. Come in, be authentic. Bie rial Find ways to talk about things that people will relate to and they will follow you. They will keep listening. They will keep watching and they will find you.

spk_1:   30:02
So, Jimmy, you you have been promising me the most sexiest body. If I follow all your fitness rules, that's fake news.

spk_2:   30:11
That's a fake news, man. You gotta put in the work. You gotta put the time just like just like Jared is saying here, um, you know, if I could just kind of mention just one more thing about about it, you know it. I don't know how it is in in health and health care, especially in health care tech, but, you know, it's for me. It's like I look, it is unfortunate that on on my in on the fitness and you know, it's it's really like, you know, like the good content of the real content, you know that that's out there for it. It's not, as we say, like not as sexy or is not as not as cool as some of the stuff that people are putting out, you know? And, uh, it's it's a tough battle, cause there's a lot of great, you know, a lot of great fitness advocates out there who are really promoting like the, you know, the stuff, like real news, like science based up. But it's not making the kind of waves, as as is, you know, when it comes to things like, you know, popular instagram people, things like that. You finding that as well In the health care industry?

spk_0:   31:13
Yes, just at a lower scale. It is absolutely out there. They're they're still those who are who will they have a larger audience to begin with and they'll have just kind of Ah ah, you know, if you ask around with their peers, they're like, man like that, that perspectives way off. And yet they do get a lot more engagement. They have more followers so that they're gonna generate more more to talk about. Yeah, that is certainly a struggle. And I think that's why for years the clinical community just kind of stayed away and they said, Don't google your symptoms. People like when you're coming into the clinic, you're asking me stuff. Don't google it. There's their coffee bugs that that I saw a coffee mug a few years ago that said, like, uh, don't don't mistake your Google search for my medical degree. You know, like it like that was the That was the attitude of the clinical community just to tell people to avoid it. And, of course, what happened? You know, the Internet filled up with all sorts of fake health news and content and information that that isn't really right. And that's what we're gonna consume because we are googling things because we're trying to look up stuff because I think I might have something. Well, where am I gonna look? You know, my my doctor can't fit me in, and they wouldn't have taken that long on the phone. Thio. You answer my questions anyway, so I'm going to google it. So, you know, I think we're learning a lot just based on where people go for information in the first place. You

spk_2:   32:31
know, it's and it's I think it's ever so prevalent now, you know, with the you know, the biggest news out there right now with the Corona virus. You know, I was just chatting with my wife earlier today, and she's like, I gotta, like, stay off off the Internet because she'll read one thing that says, You know, Corona virus is this thing that people are dropping dead. And then she'll read something else that says, You know, it's not as bad on the common flu kills more people than then the Corona virus, you know? And she's She's confused. She's very confused of what to believe and what not to believe.

spk_0:   32:58
Yeah, that man perfect. Perfect example. I don't see that going away anytime soon. Unfortunately, there's just so much information, and there's so much content that has been put out there that it's going to be impossible to avoid it. What I what I do love is that we've got some momentum now. We've got kind of a foot in the door. That door is opening up wider. There's another doctor. I've followed, his friends of a friend of mine's Dr Justin Smith. He goes by the dock Smitty. He's a pediatrician out in the Fort Worth area in North Texas, and he's been doing this for years. He and he's responsible for digital health at Cook, Children's and I'm telling you, like it was his mantra when I first heard. Like, you can't complain about bad health information if you're not putting out good health information out there. And so he's like he will go to the lengths of his instagram stories, his highlights, you know, the stories that stay, you know that you saved that Some deacon reference later. His highlights are all about Hey, look here. The question they're gonna ask you when you come in for your your child's three month appointment for their six month appointment for their nine month appointment. So you can be prepared when you come in and then hear that hear their things out, even invite you to research. Go ahead, Google these things. And if you have any questions, I'll be ready to answer those at that appointment. So he's putting out content for very specific things and pretty much every day he's on instagram also, But he's direct to patients, right? So he is trying to combat things, and it's usually I think you just had one on Corona virus recently on Ah ah, he's talking about flew all the time, though, So in his mind, he is combating that fake health information by putting out really health information on a regular basis. In his case, it's a daily basis. He he's able to figure out how to do that within his work flow, kind of bringing it back to that. But it's not gonna go away soon. But we just we just need more more of this because, he said, when he first started doing that several years ago, everyone else in the department and the whole health system were like like, You're nuts, like where you're spending any time on this and now they're coming to him asking like, How do you do this? So the tides changed a little bit,

spk_1:   34:59
Yeah, kudos to him and I was thinking the same thing. How is he finding time to do that? But again, you know he's providing a great service to his patients. But on the other side of this, So if you are, if you're putting out very targeted ads, for example, let's talk about privacy right and Jimmy's favorite topic. So how obviously health systems they have access to patient's health records. They have access, you know, pretty much every lap test, every radiology test that's done. They know the age off their patients. The target. Now, how far can you go in terms of using that data when you are actually marketing men, you're actually putting out the ads and targeting specific people you know, in terms of OK, if you're over age 50 then we know you know these people are over age 50. Let's try and make sure that they get these following ads based on their age, for example. Um, I don't know. I think privacy is definitely something that, in health get is such a very critical topic. But I have. Do you kind of balance that in terms, off marketing and doing targeting ads, but at the same time not going overboard, you know, and using some of the data that you actually shouldn't be using?

spk_0:   36:19
Yeah, this is a really central piece of just about any digital strategy these days. And to me, there's a difference between ah ah, those who are. If you're using 1/3 party platform, Facebook ads Google ads linked in YouTube or whatever to target demographic versus using your own first party data like you're saying like straight from a patient's electronic health record you their own private health information that you own to target somebody with a marketing campaign. Those two are there two different ways of doing it. Um, and the 2nd 1 like using the first party data yet that's a no No. Like like we didn't. That's that's just not a thing that happens, is, um and you can see why. Um, there's a difference between that and targeting people with the Google ad with those who have searched for a certain phrase related to that. Because that's not data that you owned that you are using for a marketing purpose to me. I I would think of that just in terms of a difference between Mark marketing campaign and a communications effort. Right. So what if you, uh what if all of like, what? If your you work for hospital in a dermatology clinic, moved to a different building and you want to communicate out to all your current patients that the next time they come in they're gonna have to go to a different building? Is that a marketing campaign or, you know, are you using their their private data to communicate with them some valuable information to me, man. Miles apart from the type of thing, Probably that you were referring to, that we're talking about how to use a patient's private data to to send something, because, I mean, I'm anti like even there were people who were suing the hospital that I've worked for before they were wanting to anyway, just because an envelope arrived in their mailbox that was addressed to a certain person and the nut it is said, you know, such a such hospital psychology department. So they said if somebody else said, read my if something else had seen that envelope, they would know that my child is a psych patient and they're like e uh, okay, you know, they're, like, weird. It was It was actually case recently where they're like, actually, our office is moving across the street. You know, that kind of, uh so

spk_1:   38:34
And maybe that's where technology can actually help right in. Instead of receiving this physical paper. If you actually had an app that you used to communicate with the hospital with your caregivers with your care team, then maybe you could get a secure, direct message that would actually tell you. Hey, by the way we are moving offices and its direct communication. You know, there's no nobody else would actually see that, not even physical mail. Maybe that's very in future. We'll see more and more communication. Aah! Direct communication with the help of technology.

spk_0:   39:12
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there is there such a fine line. Um, because, like, uh, I mean health care. You're not allowed. You're not able to retarget a remark it like, you know, a lot of other products and service is our and that kind of changes the game there, too. But it's for the same reason. Um, you know, at the end of the day, it is something that's got to be brought up earlier in any marketing discussion, and the expectations have to be set. Evan has to understand that what's possible and what's not anymore. And whether you can Does that really mean you should. I would always say, you know, just proceed with caution and understand truly what what the rules are of every specific channel that you're using you more often than not. You'll you'll stay within those state parameters. But to me, like no one benefits. If somebody bends those rules the privacy rules at all. Nobody benefits from that

spk_1:   40:01
Well said. Yeah, I am. We always talk about Google and Amazon and in even Apple. You know, they have access to so much data, and, you know, how are they using it? Who are they sharing with? But at the same time, healthcare system also have access to the same data. So I mean, you can, right? I mean, the urge is there. You know, you have access to so much data that you can probably use to to market and target certain ads. But you're right. Ethically that, Steph. And only a huge No, no. And I hope no one's using that, you know, for the same purpose. Hey,

spk_2:   40:39
Joe, You know, I I want to just say really appreciate your time on coming onto the show today before we before we let you go. Um, is there any any final words you'd like to tell the listeners out there?

spk_0:   40:52
Uh, well, first and foremost, thanks for having me on. It's been a blast. I love talking about this stuff. If you can't tell, I personally have a passion behind this. I would just say in all the discussions we have and everyone I talked to just about every day. I try to find the opportunities in all of this, right, Because we could We could get stuck in all of the details of all you know, take fake health news, right? Take data, privacy. Take each of these these pieces and we can also see why classic marketing campaigns aren't working. Or we can see the opportunity to say like, Hey, I could be one of the first ones. I could be one of those that the joins Dr Chang out of Jefferson Health or the docks Smitty out in Texas of Ah, okay, I'm gonna start doing that. Or maybe it's not direct to consumer. Maybe I can use that same principle and just start sharing content, the same kinds of things that I would share in the clinic or the same kinds of things that would share with my investors. Whatever the audience is, I think it's just seeing the opportunity. There's nothing wrong with being one of the first. In fact, that has more advantages than waiting. Consumers want the right information. They want health care to be easier, more affordable, more accessible and anything we can do to help. That ultimately is a benefit for everybody. So if we can draw that line between our marketing and those efforts, then it's gonna be a lot easier to spend time on the right. Things were going to do them right more often than not, and then we're gonna feel better about it. So a win win win in my case,

spk_2:   42:21
that's amazing. Thank you so much, Jared and Jet before before. Just before. If somebody wants to book you as a as a speaker or if they if they want to pick your brain on digital marking, where could they work? They find

spk_0:   42:32
Absolutely. I'm at Jared Piano on Twitter J R E D P i N o and I'm on linked in all day long. You just find me there. You also just find out that the getting healthcare wrap itself distressing to that and the people and end up engaging with that everywhere. So we'll

spk_2:   42:50
make sure that we have all that information. If you want to get in touch with Jared. Fantastic. Amazing guest here today. You make sure we'll have all that information in our show notes today.

spk_1:   42:59
I know. I have, like, 100 more questions, but yeah, Jared really, really appreciate your jumping on today, and we'll definitely have you back. I mean, I want to ask you about a I in health care and, you know, building using a I to build digital marketing strategies. And so many more questions. Including, like, your name Jared piano. You know why? Why? Piano? But yes, let's Let's keep that for next time. And me, you know, part to digital strategy. Part to Jerry.

spk_0:   43:31
Sounds good. It's been a blast. Gentlemen, thanks so much for having me on. They give you